* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [CALL TO ORDER] [ROLL CALL] [00:00:08] COMMISSIONER MORALES PRESENT. COMMISSIONER GARNER. HERE. COMMISSIONER GUDO. GOOD. PRESENT. COMMISSIONER ALAR. PRESENT. WE HAVE CORUM. THANK YOU. AND JUST SO THE COMMISSIONERS KNOW, YOU ALSO HAVE YOUR FIFTH MEMBER HERE, HERLEY OWENS, BUT MR. OWEN HAS COMPLETE HIS AB 1, 2, 3 FOR TRAINING. IN ORDER TO PARTICIPATE. UH, GARY, COULD WE GET YOUR MIC ON JUST FOR THE RECORDING? SURE. MR. OWENS HAS TO COMPLETE HIS TRAINING BEFORE HE CAN SIT WITH THE BODY, BUT HE IS A MEMBER OF THIS COMMISSION AS WELL. I WANNA THANK YOU ALL FOR COMING IN TODAY. UM, THIS IS BASICALLY TO GIVE YOU AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT'S HAPPENING, UH, MOVING FORWARD AS THIS NEW COMMISSION IS NOW FORMALLY ESTABLISHED. UM, AND BEFORE WE BEGIN, UH, THERE'S PUBLIC COMMENT. [PUBLIC COMMENT Opportunity to address the Civil Service Employee Rights and Appeals Commission on non-agenda items. ] SO JUST, UH, FOR IMPORTANT ORDER, WE ARE GOING TO SKIP THE PLEDGE TODAY. UM, AND THEN WE'RE GOING TO MOVE UP PUBLIC COMMENT TO THE BEGINNING OF THIS MEETING, AND THEN WE'LL TAKE ITEM ONE. MR. MONICA, THE MICROPHONE RECORD? YES, YES, PLEASE. ALRIGHT, GOOD MORNING, EVERYBODY. SO, UM, MY NAME IS TOM OCA, FOR THE RECORD, I'M THE CITY MANAGER HERE. AND, UH, I JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE I WAS HERE ON YOUR VERY FIRST DAY, UH, ONE, JUST TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE. UM, IT TAKES A LOT TO, UH, GIVE UP YOUR TIME AND YOUR ENERGY TO COME HELP YOUR CITY. AND, UH, ALL OF YOU HAVE PROVEN THAT THAT'S IN YOUR DNA, THAT'S WHO YOU ARE. SO, UH, BUT STILL, UM, IT IS A COMMISSION THAT DOES TAKE A LOT OF EFFORT, A LOT OF DELIBERATION, A LOT OF THOUGHT, UM, AND A LOT OF TIME. SO, UH, REALLY APPRECIATE YOU, UM, YOU DOING THAT. UH, NUMBER TWO, UM, THIS COMMISSION, UH, WAS ALWAYS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT TO ME THAT THIS BE A COMMITMENT THAT WE MAKE WHEN WE LOOK AT HOW TO MODERNIZE OUR CIVIL SERVICE SYSTEM, OUR HR SYSTEM, AS WE LOOKED COMPREHENSIVELY, UH, THE VERY FIRST THING WE SAID IS THERE NEEDS TO BE AN APPEALS, UH, ABILITY FOR EMPLOYEES, UH, AND FOR WORKER RIGHTS. UM, THAT'S SOMETHING I BELIEVE IN AS MANAGER. UH, AND IT'S SOMETHING, UH, THAT WE'VE HAD FOR A WHILE, AND WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT WAS PRESERVED AND EVEN LOOKED AT DIFFERENTLY. AND, AND SO, UH, WHILE THE COMMISSION STRUCTURE DID CHANGE, UM, UNDER, UNDER A MEASURE, UM, MEASURE OB, UH, THIS WAS ALWAYS MEANT TO BE PRESERVED AND IT HAD TO BE PRESERVED. AND SO, UH, WE LOOK FORWARD TO ALL OF YOU IN THAT NEW ROLE. UH, IT IS ONE OF THE MORE DIFFICULT THINGS THAT, UH, CITY MANAGERS HAVE TO DO IS THE DISCIPLINARY SIDE, UM, IS TO, UM, YOU KNOW, IS TO, YOU KNOW, SUSPEND IS TO LETTERS OF DISCIPLINE, UH, AND ULTIMATELY, UM, SOMETIMES REMOVE EMPLOYMENT FROM THAT PERSON. UH, WE DO THAT FOR THE PUBLIC GOOD, BUT WE ALWAYS DO IT IN A WAY THAT IS RESPECTFUL AND, AND UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY'RE PEOPLE THERE. AND, AND THOSE INDIVIDUALS SHOULD HAVE A RIGHT TO APPEAL. THEY SHOULD HAVE A RIGHT FOR THEIR DAY TO COME FORWARD AND SAY, HERE'S ALL THE REASONS WHY I BELIEVE THAT I WASN'T TREATED FAIRLY OR SOMETHING ELSE. AND THEN, UH, A SEPARATE BODY RATHER THAN MYSELF IS THE ONE THAT WILL, WILL, WILL ADOPT THAT. AND, AND LOOK AT THAT. SO, UM, UH, I HOPE YOU'LL SEE THAT OUR COMMITMENT IS TO ALWAYS PROVIDE YOU WITH AS MUCH INFORMATION, UM, AS YOU CAN. AND, AND THAT WE'LL DO OUR JOB ON OUR SIDE AND MAKE SURE THAT EV EVERY ONE OF THOSE IS JUSTIFIED. AND THEN YOU'LL BE LOOKING AT ALL THE EVIDENCE. THERE MIGHT BE TIMES WE DISAGREE, AND THAT'S OKAY. UM, I'M A BIG BELIEVER IN DISAGREEMENT WITHOUT DISCORD, AND, UH, THERE ARE, THERE ARE ROUTES IF WE DISAGREE TO, TO FIGURE OUT WHERE WE GO FROM THERE, BUT THOSE ARE VERY, VERY RARE. SO, UM, UH, IN, IN OUR HISTORY, WE'VE ONLY HAD TO DO THAT, I THINK TWO OR THREE TIMES. SO WE REALLY RESPECT THE AUTHORITY OF THIS COMMISSION, AND I DO AS MANAGER, AND I WANTED YOU TO HEAR THAT FROM ME. SO, AGAIN, ON BEHALF OF OUR WHOLE MANAGEMENT TEAM, WE'VE GOT OUR HR DIRECTOR HERE AS WELL. UM, AND OUR ATTORNEY'S TEAM, WHO'S GONNA BE THE INDEPENDENT, UH, STAFF TO THIS COMMISSION. WE'RE HERE TO SUPPORT YOU, UH, AND DO THE GOOD WORK THAT YOU NEED TO BE DOING. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU. THANKS, TOM. YES. IF THERE IS NO OTHER PUBLIC COMMENTS, THAT'LL CONCLUDE. OH, MARK, WE HAD ONE MORE. YES. GOOD MORNING COMMISSIONERS. OMAR OMAR RAMOS. UH, I WAS THE DIRECTOR OF CIVIL SERVICE, UH, FOR DURING THE LAST SIX MONTHS. UM, I GIVE YOU A WELCOME GIFT, WHICH IS A LITTLE COMPASS. I WAS APPOINTED TO THIS POSITION IN DECEMBER OF 2024. WHEN I CAME TO THE POSITION, THERE WAS NO TRANSITION OF KNOWLEDGE, RIGHT? SO I FOUND MYSELF AS AN HR PROFESSIONAL, HAVING TO START FROM SCRATCH. I HAD A AMAZING STAFF. AND ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT I FACED, I WANNA SAY MAYBE AROUND FEBRUARY, WAS A CLASS TECH PROVISION THAT HAD BEEN ON HOLD FOR SIX MONTHS. AND, UM, I HAD TO MAKE THE DECISION BASED ON MY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE. AND AT THE TIME, I WAS GOING AGAINST, UM, A RECOMMENDATION FROM MY STAFF, WHICH DIDN'T SUPPORT THE CLASS CONSOLIDATION. AND SO I FOUND MYSELF ASKING, UM, THE QUESTION THAT IS IN THE CONFERENCE WHERE IT SAYS, IS IT BETTER TO BE RIGHT? IS IT BETTER TO DO THE RIGHT THING TO DO THE CLASS BY CONSOLIDATION AT THAT POINT IN TIME, HAVING BEEN FROZEN FOR SIX MONTHS, STAFF HAVING RECEIVED THE COMPENSATION FOR SIX MONTHS. SO I MAY HAVE THE DECISION BASED ON BEING DOING THE RIGHT THING, RIGHT? AS YOU JOIN THE COMMISSION, AS YOU START THIS NEW COMMISSION, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A CHANCE TO CHART, UM, NEW PATHS, NEW WAYS. AND SO I HOPE ONE OF MY CORE VALUES KIND [00:05:01] OF HELPS YOU GUIDE AS YOU MOVE FORWARD. SO, WELCOME AND THANK YOU FOR DOING THIS. UH, THERE IS NO OTHER PUBLIC COMMENT AT THIS TIME. THAT'LL CONCLUDE PUBLIC COMMENT. THANK YOU. SO COMMISSIONER, LET ME FORMALLY INTRODUCE MYSELF. I I'VE KNOWN A FEW OF YOU FOR A WHILE, BUT MY NAME IS GARY ANDERSON. I'M THE ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY, AND I'M THE ADVISOR TO THE COMMISSION. I'M YOUR ADVISOR, YOUR LEGAL ADVISOR. AND SO, AS TOM MENTIONED WITH THE, UM, PASSAGE OF MEASURE LB, UM, YOU'RE STILL AN INDEPENDENT BODY, BUT THERE IS NO CIVIL SERVICE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR THAT WE HAD IN THE PAST THAT WOULD BE WORKING WITH YOU ON A DAILY BASIS. BUT WE DO HAVE GISELLE RODRIGUEZ, WHO'S FROM MY OFFICE. HE'S A LEGAL ASSISTANT WHO IS ASSIGNED SPECIFICALLY TO THIS COMMISSION. SO ALL OF HER WORK IS FOR YOU, AND I'M GONNA GIVE YOU HER CONTACT INFORMATION SO YOU ALL HAVE IT. BUT, UM, JUST KNOW THAT WE'RE HERE TO ASSIST YOU TO SERVE YOU, BUT I AM THE LEGAL ADVISOR TO YOU AS A BODY. AND SO TODAY I WANTED TO ONE, GET TO KNOW ALL OF YOU THAT SINCE I HAVEN'T MET EVERYONE, AND I ALSO WANTED YOU TO GET, HAVE A CHANCE TO MEET EACH OTHER SINCE YOU ARE A BODY. UM, YOU BECAME OFFICIAL ON JULY ONE, AND SOME OF YOU MAY BE ASKING, SO, YOU KNOW, HOW COME WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY HEARINGS YET? SO TODAY I WANT TO TELL YOU LIKE, WHAT'S BEEN GOING ON. UM, TYPICALLY WHEN THE HEARINGS ARE HELD, THEY'RE ALL DAY, AND THEY'RE USUALLY HELD ON WEDNESDAYS. UM, THEY AVERAGE BETWEEN TWO TO THREE DAYS. AND SO IF WE STARTED ON A WEDNESDAY, THAT'D BE DAY ONE OF A HEARING. AND THEN WE CONTINUE THE NEXT WEEK TO DAY TWO, DAY THREE. UM, SOMETIMES HEARINGS WILL BE FIVE DAYS, SIX DAYS LONG, BUT ON AVERAGE, TWO TO THREE DAYS. I JUST WANNA GIVE YOU A HEADS UP. WE'RE IN THE PROCESS NOW WORKING WITH THE TWO ATTORNEYS THAT WILL BE COMING FOR YOU TO PRESENT CASES FOR THESE HEARINGS. ONE OF THEM IS THE UNION ATTORNEY NAMED JAMES TROTT. THE OTHER PERSON IS CHELSEA TROTTER, WHO WORKS FOR THE CITY AND PRESENTS CASES ON BEHALF OF THE CITY. UM, SO WE'RE WORKING WITH THEM TO COORDINATE THE SCHEDULE, UH, WHEN WE'LL BE COMING BACK TO YOU TO PRESENT CASES. IN THE PAST, A LOT OF THE CASES THAT THE COMMISSION HEARD WERE, UH, POLICE THAT WAS PROBABLY AT LEAST HALF OF THE CASES THAT CAME TO THE COMMISSION WERE POLICE CASES. WITH THE PASSAGE OF MEASURE LB, THERE WAS CONCESSION MADE TO THE POA, THE UNION THAT REPRESENTS THE POLICE OFFICERS. POLICE OFFICERS NOW HAVE THE OPTION THAT THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE THEIR HEARINGS HEARD BY WHAT'S CALLED THE OAH, THE OFFICE OF OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS. THOSE ARE THE, THOSE ARE THE SAME, UM, OR IT'S THE SAME AGENCY THAT HEARS THE, UM, APPEAL CASES INVOLVING FIREFIGHTERS. SO BECAUSE OF THAT, THE SAY, THE, THE VOLUME OF CASES THAT THE COMMISSION WOULD TYPICALLY HEAR IS NOW SMALLER. YOU'RE GONNA HEAR MORE CASES INVOLVING NON-SWORN EMPLOYEES, BUT WE ARE COORDINATING, LIKE I SAID, WITH MR. TROTT AND MS. TROTTER TO FIGURE OUT THE SCHEDULE MOVING FORWARD. AND I HOPE TO HAVE THAT TO YOU BY NEXT WEEK. UM, SO I JUST WANTED TO LET YOU LET YOU KNOW THAT WE'VE BEEN WORKING BEHIND THE SCENES TO KIND OF GET THE BALL ROLLING, UM, SO THAT YOU WEREN'T IN THE DARK IN TERMS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING, , JUST TO MAKE SURE, UH, WE'RE, UM, OFFICIALLY GETTING INTO ITEM ONE. YEAH. UM, UH, I'LL GO AHEAD AND, UH, UH, READ IT AND THEN WE'LL MOVE, UH, MOTION IN A SECOND. I JUST DON'T WANNA GET TOO FAR AFIELD, AND THEN THAT'S FINE. GO AHEAD. OKAY. SO, RECOMMENDATION TO RECEIVE AND [1. 25-55827 Recommendation to receive and file new Orientation for the Civil Service Employee Rights & Appeals Commissioners.       Suggested Action: Approve recommendation. ] FILE NEW ORIENTATION FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE EMPLOYEE RIGHTS AND APPEALS COMMISSION. MAY I HAVE A MOTION? I MOVED. ALL RIGHT. I AYE. COMMISSIONER ALAR AND SECOND BY MORALE. OKAY, THANK YOU. AND SO I WANTED TO ALSO GIVE A LITTLE BACKGROUND OF HOW THE HEARINGS ARE CONDUCTED SO THAT WHEN YOU DO HAVE A HEARING, WHEN YOU START, YOU'RE NOT CAUGHT OFF GUARD IN TERMS OF WHAT TO EXPECT. SO, AS I MENTIONED, AND AS TOM ALLUDED TO, UM, THE DECISION HAS ALREADY BEEN MADE, MADE BY MANAGEMENT TO DISCIPLINE EMPLOYEE THAT AN EMPLOYEE HAS A RIGHT TO APPEAL. THEY COME HERE FOR THE APPEAL HEARING. UM, THERE'LL BE AN ATTORNEY HERE FOR THE CITY, CHELSEA TROTTER, WHO WILL PRESENT THE CITY'S CASE. SHE'LL CALL WITNESSES, UM, PRESENT HER EVIDENCE. A LOT OF TIMES THERE ARE POWERPOINT PRESENTATIONS. UM, I WILL SIT AS THE JUDGE AND I WILL RULE ON THE OBJECTIONS THAT BE, THAT MAY BE MADE BY THE OPPOSING COUNSEL. UM, I'LL RULE ON WHAT EVIDENCE IS, IS ADMISSIBLE AND WHAT EVIDENCE IS NOT ADMISSIBLE. AND I'LL RULE, RULE ON ALL OF THE LEGAL ISSUES THAT COME UP. YOU WILL HAVE A CHANCE TO ASK QUESTIONS OF WITNESSES AFTER THEY HAVE TESTIFIED. UM, ONCE THE CITY HAS PUT IN THEIR CASE AND THERE'S BEEN CROSS EXAMINATION BY THE EMPLOYEE SIDE, THEN THE EMPLOYEE WILL HAVE THEIR CHANCE TO PRESENT THEIR CASE AND, AND TELL YOU WHY THEY THINK THAT THE CHARGES ARE NOT PROVEN. UM, ONCE ALL THAT HAS BEEN CONDUCTED, YOU WILL THEN [00:10:01] DELIBERATE. YOU WILL, UH, RECESS, GO INTO CLOSED SESSION AND DELIBERATE ABOUT THE CASE AND DISCUSS WHAT YOU THINK IS THE APPROPRIATE PUNISHMENT. AND WHETHER IT'S, I SHOULDN'T SAY PUNISHMENT, YOU SHOULD, YOU'LL DELIBERATE TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THE CHARGES ARE SUSTAINED OR NOT. AND AS A COMMISSION, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO EITHER SUSTAIN THE CHARGE THAT PRESENTED IS PRESENTED BEFORE YOU, YOU CAN, UM, SUSTAIN, REJECT IN TERMS OF FINDING THAT THE EVIDENCE WAS NOT SUFFICIENT AND THEREFORE THE CITY DID NOT PLEAD THE CASE. UM, AS IT RELATES TO THE CHARGES AND AS IT RELATES TO THE DISCIPLINE, YOU CAN SUSTAIN THE DISCIPLINE, YOU CAN OVERTURN THE DISCIPLINE, AND IN RARE SITUATIONS YOU CAN REDUCE THE DISCIPLINE. THOSE ARE YOUR OPTIONS AS A COMMISSION. AND BEFORE I GO ANY FURTHER, ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PROCESS SO FAR? MR. GARDNER, YOU, YOU SAID IN RARE CASES THAT CAN BE REDUCED. YES. IS THERE, WHY, WHY IS IT RARE? I MEAN, WELL, THERE HAS TO BE, YOU DON'T WANNA ABUSE YOUR DISCRETION. SO YOU HAVE DISCRETION AS A, AS A BODY TO, TO MAKE DECISIONS. AND YOUR DECISIONS HAVE TO BE BASED ON THE EVIDENCE. SO IF, IF THE EVIDENCE, LET'S SAY WARRANTS, LET'S SAY A TERMINATION AND YOU SUSTAIN ALL THE CHARGES, BUT YOU SAY, WELL, WE DON'T BELIEVE IT'S A TERMINATION AND WE'RE NOT GONNA IMPOSE ANY DISCIPLINE THAT COULD ARGUABLY A, THAT COULD ARGUABLY BE A USE OF DISCRETION. YOU FOUND THAT THERE WERE CHARGES THAT WERE SUSTAINED, YET YOU'RE NOT GONNA IMPOSE DISCIPLINE. THAT COULD BE ENORMOUS . YEAH. SO, UM, DO WE ONLY GET TO ASK QUESTIONS TO THE WITNESSES ONCE OR CAN WE COME BACK AFTER TROT DOES PRESENT TO THIS CASE AND ASK WHAT, TALK TO THIS AGAIN. YEAH, USUALLY YOU GET TWO BITES AT THE APPLE. OKAY. YES. ANY MORE QUESTIONS? OKAY. SO LIKE I SAID, YOU WILL BE GETTING A, A SCHEDULE FROM US AND ABOUT, UH, HOPEFULLY NEXT WEEK WITH THE CASES THAT NEED TO BE HEARD. UH, I WILL SAY THAT THERE IS A BACKLOG OF CASES BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T HAD A HEARING ALL YEAR. THERE'S BEEN NO HEARING. UM, AND, AND OBVIOUSLY DISCIPLINE HAS BEEN IMPOSED ON EMPLOYEES DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME, BUT THERE HAVE BEEN NO HEARINGS, SO THERE'S A BACKLOG. UM, HAVING SAID THAT, WE'LL SAY THAT ON THE UNION SIDE, MOST OF THE CASES ARE PRESENTED BY JIM TROT AND IF MR. TROTT IS HAVING A POLICE CASE OR A FIRE CASE THAT HE'S HANDLING WITH THE OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS, OBVIOUSLY HE CAN'T COME HERE SO THAT THERE'S MORE TIME THAT MAY PASS WHERE YOU'RE NOT HEARING ANY CASE. 'CAUSE HE'S OCCUPIED HANDLING ONE OF THOSE CASES. SO DON'T BE ALARMED THAT WE'RE NOT HAVING CASES EVERY WEEK, BUT IN THE MEANTIME, WHILE WE'RE NOT HAVING CASES, THERE STILL MAY BE A BACKLOG FOR YOU THAT'S BUILDING, IF THAT MAKES SENSE. 'CAUSE YOU'RE HANDLING ALL THE NON-SWORN CASES. YES. HOW, HOW LARGE IS THE CURRENT BACKLOG? WE'RE STILL WORKING ON THAT RIGHT NOW. I'M TRYING TO GET A GRASP OF HOW MANY CASES THERE ARE, BUT I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THERE ARE CASES THAT NEED TO BE HEARD. AND I WOULD SAY THAT THERE ARE SOME CASES THAT PROBABLY GO BACK TO AT LEAST, UM, 2021. THAT WAS GONNA BE MY NEXT QUESTION. YEAH. BUT, BUT I WILL SAY THIS THOUGH. I MEAN, IT COULD BE LIKE MAYBE FIVE CASES OR IT COULD BE 10 CASES FROM 2021. WE'RE STILL TRYING TO FIGURE THAT OUT. SO ARE YOU ALSO WORKING ON WHAT ORDER WE'RE GONNA TAKE THEM IN? YES, BECAUSE WE'RE GONNA DO THE OLDEST FIRST. OLDEST FIRST, I THINK THE ONLY THURSDAY EMPLOYEES, THE OLDEST FIRST. AND WILL WE RECEIVE A PACKET OF INFORMATION ON THE CASE BEFORE WE COME TO THE HEARING? NO. TO REVIEW? NO, YOU'LL GET A PACKET OF INFORMATION. UM, WELL, YOU'LL GET A PACKET OF INFORMATION ON THE DAY OF THE HEARING, LIKE YOU'LL GET A PACKET THAT WILL INCLUDE ALL OF THE CHARGES THAT ARE ALLEGED AGAINST THE EMPLOYEE, AS WELL AS ALL OF THE EXHIBITS OR EVIDENCE THAT BOTH SIDES ARE INTENDING TO PRESENT DURING THE CASE. BUT YOU ONLY GET THAT THE DATE OF THE HEARING, BUT YOU WILL GET, UH, A LIST IN ADVANCE OF THE HEARING OF WHICH CASES ARE TO BE HEARD. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW DETAILS ABOUT THOSE CASES. SO HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO HAVE TIME TO REVIEW ALL OF THAT INFORMATION? ARE WE JUST SUPPOSED TO RELY ON THE ORAL PRESENTATION? YES, BECAUSE YOUR DECISION IS BASED UPON THE EVIDENCE THAT'S PRESENTED. SO THE FACT THAT YOU MAY HAVE A BINDER WITH ALL OF THE EXHIBITS. YEAH, I'M STILL HAVING TO MAKE A RULING ON WHETHER OR NOT SOME OF THOSE EXHIBITS ARE ADMITTED OR NOT. OKAY. AND THEN ONCE YOU'VE HEARD ALL THE EVIDENCE, THEN YOU DELIBERATE AS A GROUP TO DISCUSS WHAT YOU'VE HEARD AND WHETHER OR NOT YOU THINK THE CHARGES HAVE BEEN PROVEN OR NOT. OKAY. AND THEN YOU MAKE YOUR DECISION. BUT YEAH, YOU DON'T GET THE PACKET OF INFORMATION REGARDING THE EVIDENCE BEFOREHAND. [00:15:01] IT LIKE A JURY TRIAL, YOU'RE BASICALLY LIKE A JURY. YOU, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE INFORMATION ABOUT A POTENTIAL CASE YOU'RE GONNA SIT ON AS A JUROR UNTIL YOU'VE ACTUALLY SHOWN UP IN COURT, HEARD THE EVIDENCE, AND THAT'S WHEN YOU RECEIVE IT. OKAY. YES. AND THIS, THIS MIGHT BE A LITTLE MORE TECHNICAL. UH, COULD YOU GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES OF, UM, EVIDENCE FROM BOTH SIDES? SO SOMETHING THAT, THAT, UH, UH, JAMES TROTT MIGHT PRESENT OR SOMETHING THAT, UM, UH, I DON'T REMEMBER FIRST NAME, BUT MS. OTTER MIGHT PRESENT THAT YOU WOULD RULE INELIGIBLE. LIKE WHAT, WHAT WOULD CAUSE SOMETHING TO BE INELIGIBLE EVIDENCE? AND OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN'T GIVE US EVERY EXAMPLE, RIGHT? YES. BUT YES, A GENERAL OVERVIEW IF, IF POSSIBLE. SO I THINK THE, I THINK THE, THE MAIN ISSUE WHEN IT COMES TO EVIDENCE IS WHETHER OR NOT THE EVIDENCE IS RELEVANT. UM, THE STRICT RULES OF EVIDENCE DO NOT APPLY FOR HEARINGS THAT YOU WILL HEAR, BUT NEVERTHELESS, I HAVE TO MAKE A RULING ON WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING SHOULD BE, UM, ADMITTED AND THAT YOU SHOULD HEAR IT. A LOT OF TIMES IT'S BASED UPON OR RELEVANCY. UM, TO GIVE THE, TO GIVE AN EXAMPLE, LET'S SAY HYPOTHETICALLY AN EMPLOYEE, AN EMPLOYEE HAS BEEN, UM, DISCIPLINED FOR THEFT OF CITY FUNDS, HYPOTHETICALLY. AND LET'S SAY THAT THE CITY WANTS TO SHOW THAT THE PERSON WAS DISCIPLINED 10 YEARS AGO FOR NESS, I WOULD SAY, WELL, HOW IS THAT RELEVANT? WHAT DOES THAT PROVE? SO IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT, I WOULD SAY, EH, NO, UM, THAT'S NOT REALLY RELEVANT. I MEAN, ONE DOESN'T, DOESN'T BASICALLY BECAUSE SOMEONE WAS DISCIPLINED FOR BEING LATE AT WORK DOESN'T SHOW A DISPOSITION TO COMMIT THAT. SO I WOULD SAY IT IS NOT RELEVANT. SO THAT WOULD BE AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE I WOULD RULE ON SOMETHING LEGALLY. AND, AND THAT MAKES SENSE. UM, I GET, UH, WHAT, 'CAUSE SOMETIMES, UM, YOU KNOW, AND WE'RE NOT, THIS ISN'T A COURT OF LAW SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE SAME STANDARDS OR ANYTHING HERE, BUT YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SOMETIMES EVIDENCE CAN BE RULED OUT THAT IS ON THE LINE. YES. IS THERE AN APPEAL, LIKE DOES THE UNION OR THE CITY HAVE A CHANCE TO APPEAL YOUR DECISION ON RELEVANCE? SO WHAT HAPPENS IS SOMETIMES I MAY, I MAY PRESERVE RULING ON AN ISSUE UNTIL I'VE HEARD MORE EVIDENCE. SO THAT HAPPENS SOMETIMES WHERE I'LL SAY, OKAY, I'M NOT GONNA RULE ON IT RIGHT NOW, BUT LET ME HEAR MORE INFORMATION, THEN I'LL MAKE, THEN I'LL MAKE THE DECISION ONCE I'VE HEARD MORE. UM, BUT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION ABOUT APPEALS, SO EVERY SINGLE APPEAL HEARING THAT YOU'LL HEAR, THERE'S ALWAYS A COURT REPORTER HERE, AND THE COURT REPORTER'S TAKEN OUT EVERYTHING THAT'S BEING SAID ABOUT ALL OF THE ATTORNEYS, ABOUT ALL THE WITNESSES. EVEN YOUR QUESTIONS ARE BEING RECORDED BY THE COURT REPORTER. SO IN THE EVENT THAT EITHER THE CITY OR THE EMPLOYEE DISAGREES WITH YOUR DECISION, THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO FILE WHAT'S CALLED A WR OF APPEAL IN SUPERIOR COURT. SO IT CAN BE APPEALED. OKAY. UM, LIKE, LIKE I SAID, I DON'T ANTICIPATING HEARING TOO MANY POLICE CASES, UM, UNLESS MR. TROTT AND THE POA THINKS OTHERWISE, BUT IN THE PAST, AT LEAST 90% OF THE CASES WHERE AN OFFICER MAY HAVE LOST THOSE CASES WERE APPEALED AND THEY WOULD GO TO SUPERIOR COURT AND THEY WOULD FOLLOW THEIR REASONS FOR WHY THEY THINK THE COMMISSION, WHAT THEIR CHALLENGING IS YOUR DECISION AT THAT POINT, UM, TO SAY THAT MAYBE YOU GOT IT WRONG FOR WHATEVER REASON. AND AS TOM ALLUDED TO, I MEAN, I'VE BEEN REPRESENTING THE COMMISSION FOR OVER 15 YEARS. THERE'S BEEN TWO CASES THAT I CAN THINK OF WHERE THE CITY BROUGHT AN APPEAL AGAINST THE COMMISSION. IT'S RARELY, USUALLY AS AN EMPLOYEE. ANY OTHER QUESTION? YEAH, A COUPLE THINGS. YEAH. UH, THAT BACKLOG IS REALLY CONCERNING, OBVIOUSLY, AND SEEMS LIKE IT'S NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE EMPLOYEE OR THE CITY OR THE TAXPAYERS. HOW DO WE MOVE THAT OUT? UH, IF TRO IS THE STUMBLING BLOCK, UM, DOES HE HAVE A BACKUP THAT THEY CAN USE OR, SO THERE IS ANOTHER ATTORNEY THAT OCCASIONALLY WILL BE USED BY POA, UM, THAT WILL COME IN, UM, EVERY NOW AND THEN. I HAVEN'T SEEN HIM IN A WHILE. AND EVERY NOW AND THEN THE IAM WILL HAVE THEIR OWN, UM, REPRESENTATIVE THAT COMES FORWARD. BUT FOR THE MOST PART IT'S MR. TROT. UM, THAT'S SOMETHING I DON'T MIND PERHAPS HAVING A DISCUSSION WITH THE UNION ABOUT. I DON'T KNOW, WE CAN'T FORCE THEM TO HIRE MORE COUNSELORS PAY FOR IT, BUT IT WOULD HELP EXPEDIT THE CASES IF IT WAS MORE ATTORNEYS ON THE EMPLOYEE SIDE. YEAH. IT SEEMS LIKE IT'D BE IN THE BEST INTEREST OF HEARD. YEAH, NO, NO, I, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. YEAH. AND I DON'T MIND HAVING THAT CONVERSATION TO SEE WHAT YOU THINK NEED CAN BE DONE. OKAY. WELL, WHAT ARE THE SITUATIONS WHERE, UH, COMMISSIONER WOULD HAVE TO ACCUSE HIMSELF [00:20:02] FOR, FOR YOUR PURPOSES? TYPICALLY? UM, IT'S ONLY COME UP ONCE WHERE WE HAD A COMMISSIONER WHO, UM, THE PERSON ACCUSED, I CAN'T REMEMBER, IT WAS THE PERSON ACCUSED, OR THE WITNESS WAS A RELATIVE OF THE COMMISSIONER. AND SO IN THAT SITUATION, THERE'S A BIAS THAT'S RELATIVE. UM, IT DOESN'T COME UP VERY OFTEN, BUT THAT WOULD BE A SITUATION WHERE YOU MAY WANNA RECUSE YOURSELF. IF YOU KNOW THE EMPLOYEE WHO'S INVOLVED, UM, OR YOU KNOW THE WITNESS AND YOU FEEL LIKE YOU CAN'T BE FAIR AND IMPARTIAL, THEN YOU MAY WANT TO RECUSE YOURSELF. OTHERWISE, WE DON'T REALLY HAVE TOO MANY, UM, BASIS THAT COME UP FOR A COMMISSION LIKE YOURSELF TO RECUSE YOURSELF. OH. SO IF, IF IT'S ONE OF MY FORMER EMPLOYEES, THAT'S NOT AN ISSUE. IT'S NOT AN ISSUE. UM, BUT WITH THE BACKLOG, WHAT IF IT'S AN EMPLOYEE AT THE TIME THAT CHRIS WAS THERE? YEAH. AT THE TIME THAT HURLEY WAS WITH PARKS AND RECREATION. YEAH. I MEAN, I GUESS IT COULD BE AN ISSUE ONLY IF YOU WERE THE, AT THE TIME YOU, YOU MADE THE DECISION TO IMPOSE THE DISCIPLINE. IF YOU MADE THAT DECISION ON BEHALF OF THE DEPARTMENT OF WATER OR UTILITIES, THEN I WOULD SAY WE'VE HAD THAT CONVERSATION. I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, CHRIS, THIS IS PROBABLY NOT THE BEST CASE FOR YOU 'CAUSE YOU'VE ALREADY, YOU WERE THE ONE WHO IMPOSED THE DISCIPLINE. SO I CAN BE FAIR. SO I WOULD ASK YOU TO RECUSE YOURSELF IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT INVOLVING AN EMPLOYEE THAT YOU, UH, SIGNED OFF ON THE DISCIPLINE FOR. OKAY. WHICH IS THE UNION, WHICH IS THE UNION THAT REPRESENTS, UM, NON-SWORN EMPLOYEES IN THE CITY. SO THERE'S SEVERAL, WE HAVE I THINK A TOTAL OF, I WANNA SAY 11 UNIONS. SO POA AND FAA ARE THE TWO BIGGEST POLICE AND FIRE. BUT THERE'S IAM UM, GOSH, I CAN'T EVEN THINK OF THE OTHER NINE. S-E-I-U-I-B-W OPERATIONS. DEFINITELY . YEAH. BUT IM IS THE LARGEST OF THE UNIONS. SO BEING THE LARGEST, THEY TEND TO HAVE MORE EMPLOYEES THAT MAY COME BEFORE YOU ONLY BECAUSE OF THE SHEER VOLUME. THEY HAVE THOUSANDS OF EMPLOYEES THAT THEY REPRESENT. UH, I'D LIKE TO GO BACK TO WHAT CHRIS SAID WAS ASKING EARLIER. UM, SO THERE'S A BACKLOG OF THESE EMPLOYEES GETTING BACK TO AS FAR BACK AS THE PANDEMIC ERA 2021. WHAT IS GOING ON WITH, SO THEY GET, THEY GET THE DISCIPLINE FROM MANAGEMENT. ARE THEY JUST NOT WORKING UNTIL THEY HEAR, WE HEAR THEIR CASE, THEY'RE NOT WORKING. WHAT IS IT? WHAT WHAT HAPPENS WITH THEM UNTIL THE CASE IS HEARD? YEAH, SO TYPICALLY, TYPICALLY, AND I CAN'T SAY THIS FOR ALL, BUT TYPICALLY, UM, THEY'RE NOT WORKING FOR THE CITY. BUT ONCE THEIR CASE IS HEARD, IF THE COMMISSION DECIDES THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT, I DON'T THINK THAT THE CITY HAS PROVEN THIS CASE. UM, WE'RE GOING TO, UM, OVERTURN THE DECISION OF THE CITY MANAGER AND REINSTATE THAT EMPLOYEE, THEN THE EMPLOYEE COMES BACK AND THEY GET BACK PAY FOR THE POINT OF WHEN THEY WERE SEPARATED. THAT DOES HAPPEN SOMETIMES. SO THAT'S THE REMEDY. OKAY. SO THEY'RE, SO IF IT'S BEEN LIKE THREE, 'CAUSE THAT'S FOUR YEARS. YEAH. IF THEY'VE HAD ANOTHER JOB, THEN THEY DON'T GET THE BACK. THEY LIKE, THEY DON'T GET THE BACK PAY FOR THE HOURS THEY WORK THE OTHER JOB, RIGHT? OR DO THEY ACTUALLY GET ALL THAT BACK PAY STILL? WE DON'T NECESSARILY GET ALL OF IT BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES IT DOESN COME OUT THAT THEY'VE BEEN WORKING SOMEWHERE ELSE. UM, BUT I THINK THAT'S WHAT, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. BUT I THINK FROM THE CASES THAT WE HAVE, WE REIN INVADED SOMEONE THEY'VE GOTTEN BACK PAID FROM THE CITY IN THE TIME OF SEPARATION. OKAY. YEAH, I MEAN MY, MY CONCERN WITH THAT QUESTION, I THINK CHRIS SHARED THE CONCERN IS THAT'S A LONG TIME. IT IS IN LIMBO. IT IS, YEAH. AND I WILL SAY, YOU KNOW, IT HASN'T HELPED THAT WHEN COVID HIT, YEAH, THERE WERE NO CASES TO BE HEARD ANYWHERE. SO EVEN THE CASES THAT WOULD GO OUT TO THE OH EIGHT H, THEY DIDN'T HEAR CASES. SO FOR A YEAR, NOTHING WAS BEING HEARD BECAUSE OF COVID. THERE WAS, THERE WAS NO WAY, WE WEREN'T GONNA HAVE, WE DIDN'T HAVE VIRTUAL HEARINGS. UH, WE WERE EXPLORING THAT IDEA, BUT IT JUST DIDN'T WORK OUT. 'CAUSE HOW DO YOU HAVE A FAIR CHANCE TO CROSS EXAMINEE SOMEONE? YOU'RE NOT IN THE SAME ROOM. IT'S ALL VIRTUALLY. SO THERE WERE VERY FEW CASES, IF ANY, THAT WERE HEARD. UM, DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME. WE HAD, I THINK WE KIND OF EXPLORED THE IDEA, BUT BOTH ATTORNEYS FOR BOTH SIDES SAID, THIS IS NOT DOABLE. RIGHT. SO WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY CASES DURING THE COVID PERIOD OF TIME. THAT'S TOUGH. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE COMMISSION, UM, DID DO, AND THIS IS SOMETHING YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER AT SOME POINT, NOT TODAY, BUT I'M JUST THROWING IT OUT THERE FOR YOU. UM, IN PREVIOUS YEARS, THE COMMISSION MADE A DECISION TO ONLY HEAR CASES THAT INVOLVED TWO DAYS OR MORE IN TERMS OF, UM, DISCIPLINE. SO ANYTHING LESS THAN TWO DAYS WOULD BE FARMED OUT TO BE HEARD BY THE OFFICE OF OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS. UM, I THINK THE RATIONALE AT THAT POINT WAS TO [00:25:01] TRY TO SORT OF GET THROUGH SOME OF THESE CASES. UNFORTUNATELY, AGAIN, THERE'S ONLY ONE UNION ATTORNEY BASICALLY. SO EVEN DOING THAT, IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY, UM, SOLVE THE PROBLEM BECAUSE THE SAME ATTORNEY THAT COMES BEFORE YOU, WHICH MEANS THE SAME ATTORNEY GOING BEFORE THE OH, AND AGAIN, IF THEY'RE THE OH THEN THEY'RE NOT HERE. BUT THAT'S SOMETHING YOU MAY WANT TO CONSIDER MOVING FORWARD. UM, BUT WE CAN GET INTO MORE DETAILS ABOUT THAT LATER. ANY MORE QUESTIONS? UM, AT THE NEXT MEETING? AND AGAIN, I'M, I'M HOPING TO HAVE A HEARING FOR YOU EARLY THE MIDGUT AT THAT POINT, WHEN WE COME BACK, WE'RE GONNA SELECT THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT. WE'LL DO THAT THE NEXT MEETING. AND I THINK FOR THE FIRST OFFICIAL MEETING, IT'LL BE SORT OF LIKE THIS WHERE I'LL, I'LL GO AHEAD AND INITIATE OPENING THE MEETING AND KIND OF STARTING IT SO THAT YOU KIND OF GET A SENSE OF, UM, HOW IT'S DONE. BUT AFTER THAT, TYPICALLY IN THE PAST, THE PRESIDENT OR VICE PRESIDENT IN THE ABSENCE OF THE PRESIDENT WOULD RUN THE MEETING. YOU WOULD RUN YOUR OWN MEETINGS, YOU WOULD, YOU KNOW, CALL UP THE ORDER, UM, AND, AND RUN THE MEETING. UM, I WILL SAY THIS AS WELL, WHEN I FIRST STARTED 15 YEARS AGO, I WANT TO SAY THAT THE COMMISSION STARTED EIGHT O'CLOCK. UM, THAT GOT PUSHED BACK FROM EIGHT TO 8 30, 8 30 TO NINE, JUST BECAUSE OF SCHEDULING AND TRYING TO GET EVERYONE HERE FOR A MEETING. UM, I'LL LEAVE IT TO YOU TO DECIDE IN THE FUTURE WHAT TIME YOU WANT TO START, BUT THE NEXT MEETING THAT WE DO HAVE, WE'LL START AT NINE, BUT WE'LL GET INTO ALL THAT. ONCE WE SELECT THE PRESENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT IN TERMS OF WHAT TIME YOU WANNA START YOUR MEETINGS, UM, YOU DO HAVE SOME CONTROL BECAUSE IT IS, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE, YOU'RE THE BODY. YOU DO HAVE CONTROL OVER THE LENGTH OF TIME THAT YOU WANT TO SPEND, UH, ON A GIVEN HEARING. AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS, AGAIN, IT'S NOT, IT HASN'T BEEN UNUSUAL IN THE PAST THAT WE START AT NINE AND GO TO FIVE. BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE HAS SOME TYPE OF SCHEDULING CONFLICT MAY GO FROM NINE TO ONE, OR WE START AT 11, GO FROM 11 TO FOUR. SO THERE'S FLEXIBILITY IN THE TIME THAT YOU WANT TO CONDUCT THE HEARINGS. BUT I WILL SAY THAT ALL OF THE HEARINGS ARE CONDUCTED DURING BUSINESS HOURS. WE DON'T REALLY, YOU KNOW, HAVE HEARINGS AFTER HOURS. UM, IT'S, IT IS DURING BUSINESS HOURS. OCCASIONALLY WE HAVE HAD SOME THAT RUN LIKE TILL MAYBE SIX, BUT THAT WAS ONLY BECAUSE WE STOPPED AT FIVE AND THEN THE COMMISSION WAS DELIBERATING FOR AN HOUR IN CLOSED SESSION. BUT TYPICALLY THE HEARINGS ARE ALL DURING, THEY'RE ALL CONDUCTED DURING THE DAY BUSINESS HOURS. AND ON WEDNESDAYS, THAT'S BEEN, THAT'S BEEN THE STANDARD PRACTICE. THEY HAVE THEM ON WEDNESDAYS. IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY, I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU TO, UH, TAKE A LOOK AT THE CIVIL SERVICE RULES. I THINK SPECIFICALLY, I THINK IT'S 84 IF MY MEMORY SERVE SERVES ME CORRECT. SECTION 84 OF THE CIVIL SERVICE RULES AND REGULATIONS, WHICH YOU CAN FIND LINE OUTLINES THE DIFFERENT GROUNDS FOR DISCIPLINE. I THINK THERE'S LIKE 15 DIFFERENT GROUNDS, UM, WHETHER IT'S DISHONESTY, WHETHER IT'S, UM, BEHAVIOR BECOMING OF A, A SITTING PLEA. SO THERE'S DIFFERENT REASONS WHY AN EMPLOYEE WOULD BE DISCIPLINED, AND YOU CAN FIND THOSE REASONS IN SECTION 84. THE REST OF THE RULES, FOR THE MOST PART, I MEAN, YOU CAN KIND OF LOOK AT THEM HERE AND THERE. UM, THERE WILL BE TIMES HERE AND THERE DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY OFTEN. ASIDE FROM HEARING APPEALS INVOLVING AND DISCIPLINE, YOU ARE ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR HEARING COMPLAINTS MADE BY APPLICANTS JOB APPLICANTS, AND ALSO EMPLOYEES REGARDING THE CIVIL SERVICE RULES. LET'S SAY THERE'S A JOB APPLICANT WHO APPLIES FOR A JOB AND THEY DON'T LIKE THE WAY HR HANDLES SOMETHING AND THEY BELIEVE IT'S IN VIOLATION OF THE CIVIL SERVICE RULES. YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO COME BEFORE YOU DURING PUBLIC COMMENT AND VOICE THEIR CONCERN. UM, AND YOU AS A BODY HAVE A RIGHT TO REQUEST THAT STAFF, UM, REPORT TO YOU AND ADDRESS THE CONCERNS THAT ARE BEING RAISED. BUT THOSE ARE YOUR TWO MAIN FUNCTIONS. THE APPEAL HEARINGS AND HEARING, UM, CONCERNS ABOUT THE CIVIL SERVICE RULES AND REGULATIONS NOT BEING APPLIED FAIRLY. ANY QUESTIONS, CHRIS? A COUPLE THINGS. UH, WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT THE HEARING, IT'S GOING MULTI MULTIPLE DAYS. SAY, UH, IT'S WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY, FRIDAY, AND DEVON CAN MAKE IT WEDNESDAY AND FRIDAY. THEY CAN'T MAKE IT [00:30:01] THURSDAY. WHAT HAPPENS THEN? SO YOUR A BODY OF FIVE AND YOU CAN'T CONDUCT BUSINESS OR HAVE A MEETING UNLESS THERE'S THREE, YOU NEED THREE FOR A QUARTER. SO LET'S SAY THERE'S FOUR OF YOU AND ONE OF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT, YOU CAN STILL CONTINUE WITH THE BUSINESS AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THAT FORM OF THREE. IF YOU ONLY HAVE THREE AND ONE OF YOU CAN'T MAKE IT, THEN WE CAN'T CONDUCT BUSINESS UNTIL YOU, THAT THIRD PERSON COMES BACK TO HAVE A QUORUM. AND THAT MAKES UP A GOOD POINT. SO LET'S SAY WE HAVE A HEARING INVOLVING DISCIPLINE AND THERE'S THREE OF YOU AND THE THREE OF YOU START AND YOU HEAR THE CASE DAY ONE, DAY TWO, WE'RE SUPPOSED TO START THE FOLLOWING WEDNESDAY, BUT SOMEONE CAN'T MAKE IT. SO WE CAN'T, WE CAN'T CONDUCT THE HEARING THAT SECOND DAY UNTIL WE HAVE THE ORIGINAL THREE BACK. IF WE START OFF WITH FOUR PEOPLE AND THE SECOND DAY, THE SECOND DAY, SOMEONE CAN'T MAKE IT, WE CAN STILL, WE STILL MAY CONTINUE WITH THE THREE THAT WERE THERE FROM THE ORIGINAL DAY. THEN THAT FOURTH PERSON, THEY'RE DONE. THEY CAN'T HEAR THE CASE ANYMORE BECAUSE THEY'VE, THEY'VE LOST THE BAD OF HEARING EVIDENCE. SO THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS. BUT THEN YOU MENTIONED WAS THE RULES AND REGULATIONS. YES. YOU CAN CHANGE THOSE AS A BODY. YOU CAN MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE CITY COUNCIL TO CHANGE THAT. OH, OKAY. YES. YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE RULES AS THEY ARE, BUT YOU CAN MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS. ONLY THE COUNCIL CAN CHANGE THE RULES OR, YES. MY QUESTION IS, UM, FOR THE RULES AND REGULATIONS, WILL YOU HAVE THEM HERE FOR US TO REVIEW IF WE NEED TO REFERENCE THAT? THERE TYPICALLY IS A BINDER. THERE'S A TYPICALLY A BINDER HERE, UM, FOR YOUR USE, UM, DURING THE HEARING. SO YEAH, WE'LL, WE'LL HAVE THAT FOR YOU. UM, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING AS WELL THAT I THINK LAPTOPS MAY BE AVAILABLE TO YOU TO ASSIST YOU IF YOU WANT THEM. UH, SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO TAKE THEIR NOTES ON THE LAPTOP TO CAPTURE ALL THE EVIDENCE. THAT'S BEING SAID. SOME PEOPLE TAKE HANDWRITTEN NOTES. IT'S YOUR CHOICE, BUT I THINK LAPTOPS WILL BE AVAILABLE TO YOU. UH, WE'LL HAVE NOTEPADS AVAILABLE TO YOU AS WELL. AND PENS. UM, IT'S BEEN PASS PRACTICE, WHICH WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE. I CONFIRM WITH THE CITY MANAGER THAT LUNCH IS PROVIDED. CHRIS, DO PROVIDE LUNCH WHEN YOU'RE HERE ALL DAY FOR YOUR HEARINGS. UH, UM, AND WE USUALLY HAVE A LIST OF DIFFERENT RESTAURANTS AND YOU'LL JUST PICK AHEAD OF TIME WHAT RESTAURANT YOU WANNA ORDER FROM, AND WE'LL HAVE THE FOOD HERE FOR YOU DURING THE LUNCH BREAK. AND YOU, AND YOU, I GET, YOU DECIDE HOW LONG YOUR BREAK WILL BE. MAYBE YOU WANT AN HOUR. DO YOU WANT AN HOUR AND A HALF? IT'S UP TO YOU, DEPENDING ON HOW THE, UM, HEARING IS PROGRESSING FOR THAT DAY. AND ARE THE MEETINGS ONCE A MONTH OR, I HEARD YOU SAY ONE WEEK TO THE NEXT, USE THIS ONE WEEK TO THE NEXT BECAUSE, AND THAT'S NOT ALWAYS THE CASE, BUT WE TRY TO MAKE IT SO THAT, UM, YOU DON'T HAVE TOO MUCH OF A GAP IN TIME SO YOU DON'T FORGET ABOUT WHAT YOU HEARD FOLLOWING WEEK. AND THERE HAVE BEEN, THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES IN THE PAST WHERE, LIKE I SAID, ON AVERAGE CASES ARE TWO TO THREE DAYS, BUT SOMETIMES YOU MAY HAVE A CASE. WE HAVE ONE CASE THAT WENT, I WANNA SAY 12 DAYS. 12 DAYS FOR ONE, ONE CASE. AND BECAUSE OF THAT, THERE WERE TIMES WHEN THE COMMISSION, WE APPEARED A WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY, FRIDAY, JUST TRYING TO GET THROUGH THE CASE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. BUT IT WENT 12 DAYS. BUT AGAIN, YOU KIND OF HAVE FLEXIBILITY TO DECIDE WHETHER YOU WANT TO DO THAT OR NOT. BUT WE TRY TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S NOT TOO MUCH OF A GAP IN DAYS, SO YOU DON'T FORGET WHAT'S BEING SAID AND HOW, HOW DO YOU PREDETERMINE, UH, THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT YOU NEED A MONTH. USUALLY THE ATTORNEYS, THEY GET TOGETHER AND THEY WILL GIVE YOU A TIME ESTIMATE AND SOMETIMES YOU CAN PUSH BACK ON THAT TIME, TIME ESTIMATE, SAY, WELL, THAT'S KIND OF LONG, CAN KIND OF SHORTEN A BIT, SHORTNESS A BIT. BUT USUALLY THE TIME ESTIMATE THAT COMES FROM THE ATTORNEYS AND, AND THAT ESTIMATE IS BASED UPON THE NUMBER OF WITNESSES THEY MAY HAVE. SOME CASES MAY HAVE THREE WITNESSES, SOME MAY HAVE 15 WITNESSES. IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT TYPE OF CASE IT IS. AND, UH, HOW MUCH NOTICE DO YOU GIVE COMMISSIONERS FOR, FOR PLANNING THE HEARINGS? SO IN OTHER WORDS, UM, NEXT MONTH WE'LL MEET IN EARLY TO MID AUGUST. YES. DO YOU ANTICIPATE WE'LL HAVE CASES THEN? YES. AND, UH, YOU'LL ADVISE US, UH, REGARDING THE AMOUNT OF DAYS THAT WE'LL NEED TO BE PRESENT, THAT TYPE OF THING? CORRECT. YEAH. SO USUALLY GISELLE WILL BE SENT OUT AN EMAIL TO YOU ALERTING, SAYING BASICALLY WE HAVE A HEARING, UM, IT'S GONNA BE A FOUR DAY HEARING. THESE ARE THE PROPOSED DATES THAT WE START, AND SHE'LL CONFIRM WHO'S AVAILABLE. AND THAT'S ONLY HOW WE WOULD DO IT. AND WE RELY UPON YOU TO MAKE SURE BOTH SIDES TRY AND REALLY FOCUS ON THE ISSUE. SO WE CAN SPEED THIS THING ALONG. YES. SO WE DON'T SPEND BOTH DAYS HEARING A TWO DAY SUSPENSION. IN THAT CASE IT WASN'T TERMINATION AND ACTUALLY TWO [00:35:01] EMPLOYEES WHO ARE BEING, UH, THEIR CASES WERE BEING HEARD SIMULTANEOUSLY. BUT YES, IT IS MY JOB TO TRY TO KEEP EVERYONE FOCUSED AND MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE USING OUR TIME EFFECTIVELY. GOOD. YES. ANY MORE QUESTIONS? YES. SO REALLY WITH THE BACKLOG, WE'RE GONNA BE BUSY RIGHT NOW, BUT THERE MAY BE TIMES DOWN THE ROAD AS WE WORK THROUGH THINGS WHERE WE DON'T EVEN MEET A MONTH BECAUSE THERE ARE NO APPEALS OR, OR THE ATTORNEYS ARE HAVING THEIR APPEALS WITH THE OH YEAH. YEAH. OKAY. AS I SAID, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF YOUR CASES IN THE PAST WERE POLICE CASES AND NOW THAT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO, UM, HAVE THEIR CASES HEARD BY OH IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING IN CONVERSATIONS WITH MR. TROTT THAT THEY INTEND TO EXERCISE THAT. RIGHT. AND THAT MAY CHANGE FOR SOME, BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, IN, IN THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE, I THINK THE IDEA WAS THEY WERE GONNA GO THROUGH A FULLY H YES. WAS I WRONG THAT I, I THOUGHT THERE WAS A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE, UM, UH, EMPLOYEES WERE ALLOWED THE OPTION TO, UH, TAKE THEIR APPEAL OUTSIDE OF SOAP SERVICE, BUT TO A, A ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE, OR I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'RE USING THE RIGHT TERM. YES. SO THOSE WERE THE CASES THAT INVOLVED DISCIPLINE LESS THAN TWO DAYS. SO THEY GO TO, THAT'S ALL. YES. ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE, THOSE CASES. AND ALSO, LET ME, LET ME ALSO ADD THAT THERE ARE ALSO CASES THAT DO NOT INVOLVE DISCIPLINE. THEY'RE CALLED DISABILITY RETIREMENT CASES. THE IDRS, THOSE CASES GO OUT TO AN ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE WHO MAKES A RECOMMENDATION. AND THEN THAT RECOMMENDATION COMES TO YOU FOR ADOPTION OR, UH, OR YOU CAN EITHER ADOPT THAT RECOMMENDATION OR YOU CAN SEND IT BACK OUT TO HAVE IT HEARD BY A DIFFERENT, UM, ADMINISTRATIVE OF LAW JUDGE. BUT THE, IN THIS, THE INDUSTRIAL DISABILITY RETIREMENTS OR CASE INVOLVING EMPLOYEES WHO'VE BEEN INJURED ON THE JOB AND THEY'RE LOOKING FOR SOME TYPE OF RELIEF. AND SO THERE'S A HEARING OFFICER THAT HEARS THAT CASE. UM, THOSE ARE THE CASES INVOLVING WORKERS' COMPENSATION. UM, AGAIN, AND THAT ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUST MAKES THE RECOMMENDATION COMES TO YOU AND YOU HAS TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT YOU WANT TO ADOPT THAT DECISION OR NOT. AND A LOT OF TIMES WHEN THAT HAPPENS WITH THOSE CASES, IT DOESN'T COME UP VERY OFTEN FOR YOU TO HEAR, BUT USUALLY YOU'LL GET THE RECOMMENDATION AND WRITTEN FORM FROM THE A LJ. BUT THERE'LL ALSO BE THE ATTORNEYS WHO HAVE MADE, COME, COME AND PRESENT A BRIEF ARGUMENT AS TO WHY THE DECISION SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT BE ADOPTED. AND THEN YOU'D MAKE A DECISION. I I WAS UNDER, UNDER THE WRONG IMPRESSION THAT, UH, DISCIPLINE OF LESS THAN TWO DAYS COULD NOT BE APPEALED AS CIVIL SERVICE. SO THAT'S WRONG. THAT'S WRONG. YEAH. I, I VERT THAT. YEAH, NO, YOU CAN APPEAL THIS ONE OF ONE DATE. YEAH. YEAH. AND THEN I HEARD THAT, UH, IF THEY WENT TO THE OUTSIDE OPTION, IF THEY LOST THE EMPLOYEE LOST, THEY COULD THEN AGAIN APPEAL TO THE CIVIL SERVICE. NO. OKAY. NO. SO WHEN, WHEN THE, WHEN THE CASES INVOLVING DISCIPLINE, NOT IDR R BUT INVOLVING DISCIPLINE ARE HEARD BY OAH OR THE A LJ, THOSE DECISIONS ARE BINDING. OKAY, GOOD. SO THOSE DECISIONS DO NOT COME BACK TO YOU. IT'S, IT IS BINDING. THAT'S THE FINAL DECISION. AND WITH THAT FINAL DECISION, THEY MAY HAVE A RIGHT TO APPEAL IT TO SUPERIOR COURT. OKAY. TO ALLEGE THAT THERE WAS SOME VIOLATION OR ABUSE OF DISCRETION BY THAT HEARING OFFICER, BUT DOES NOT COME BACK TO YOU. OKAY. GOOD. UH, 'CAUSE RAD, THERE'S ALWAYS TWO BITES. THE APPLE RIGHT NOW, I'LL GO BACK. OKAY. YEAH. UM, AND THIS IS, UM, I'M GONNA SORT OF SWITCH SUBJECTS HERE A LITTLE BIT. UM, SO THESE NOTES THAT WE'RE TAKING ON, ON THE NOTEBOOKS AND THEN THE, AND THEN THE COMPUTERS. ARE THESE MAINTAINED BY THE CITY? I MEAN THAT YOU, DO YOU FILE THESE AND KEEP THESE FOR, UM, IN CASE THERE'S A, UH, PRA REQUEST OR, OR IN, IN THE, IF THERE'S A SEAL ON OUR DECISION? THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. SO THE NOTES THAT YOU WERE TAKING IN THE PAST, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT CIVIL SERVICE COUNCIL, THEY'RE YOUR, THEY'RE YOUR NOTES. UM, BUT, BUT LET ME, LET ME GET BACK TO THAT AND I'LL GET BACK TO YOU. THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. BUT I WILL SAY, WHEN WE STARTED THE HEARING, LIKE I SAID, YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO TAKE NOTES, BUT I'M NOT AWARE EVER IN THOSE NOTES. SO GISELLE HAS BEEN GOING THROUGH SOME OF THESE STYLES THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, THE BACKLOG AND SHE'S INDICATING THAT, I GUESS SOME OF THE NOTES ARE IN THE FILES FROM THE COMMISSIONERS, OR NO, SO THE NOTEPAD THAT I, THE PROVIDED NOTES, YES. UM, THEY'RE USUALLY IN A PORTFOLIO AND WE, AND I COLLECT THE COMPONENTS AT THE END. CAN YOU KEEP THOSE THINGS? OKAY. SO [00:40:01] I GUESS THE PAST PRACTICE WAS THAT THE NOTES WERE COLLECTED IN THE PAST WHEN, WHEN THE CIVIL SERVICE WAS IN PLACE. UM, I WAS SIMPLY THE ADVISOR TO THE COMMISSION. SO I WASN'T INVOLVED IN THE ADMINISTRATION OF HOW THINGS WERE RUN. 'CAUSE THEY HAD THEIR, UH, CIVIL SERVICE, HAD THEIR OWN STAFF, THEY DID ALL THAT. SO WE'RE LEARNING AS WE GO. THANK YOU. . NO, I'M LEAVING THAT IN THEN. I'M . YES. SO I GUESS I, I'M THINKING ABOUT HOW WE CAN BE MOST, UM, EFFECTIVE IN OUR WORK. UH, SO COULD WE INITIALLY DECIDE IF WE DECIDED AS A GROUP THAT WE WANTED TO, UM, LOOK AT CASES THAT, UM, WERE DISCIPLINED LESS THAN TWO DAYS TO GET THROUGH FILES, AND THEN DECIDED AT A LATER TIME, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GONE THROUGH MAYBE, YOU KNOW, A FEW MONTHS OF, OF WORK THAT WE CAN THEN ADJUST AND MAKE IT THAT LONGER. IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WE COULD DO? YOU, YOU CAN, YES. SO THAT DECISION, UM, TO SEND CASES OUT THAT INVOLVE DISCIPLINE OF TWO DAYS OR LESS, THAT WAS A POLICY DECISION THAT THE COMMISSION MADE. SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO ADHERE TO THAT. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE POLICY, MOVE THEM FORWARD. BUT YES. AND SO YOU'LL ALSO PROVIDE US AN ANALYSIS OF THE BILLS THAT YOU HAVE SO THAT WE CAN, SO THAT WE KNOW WHAT I, I GUESS, I GUESS WHAT I'M LOOKING AT, UM, COLLEAGUES IN AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE AS EFFECTIVE AS POSSIBLE. I THINK, MARGO, YOU SEE WHAT I'M SAYING? YEAH. I'M THINKING ABOUT HOW CAN WE, HOW CAN WE MOVE QUICKLY SINCE WE'VE HAD CASES BACK TO 21 THAT WE CAN SUPPORT THE CITY, YOU KNOW, ADMINISTRATION AND THEN ADJUST AS NEEDED AS WE'RE WORKING FORWARD. AND THAT'S, THAT'S REALLY WHAT I'M, YEAH, THAT'S KIND OF THE THING THAT I WAS THINKING ABOUT ALSO WAS AN ANALYSIS BY STAFF OF WHAT THE TYPES OF CASES ARE THAT ARE COMING SO THAT WE SEE THAT TWO DAYS OR LESS IS A HIGH VOLUME AND WE'VE GOT ALL OF THIS OTHER BACKLOG TO GET THROUGH. WE MIGHT WANNA KEEP THAT GOING UNTIL WE GET THROUGH THE BACKLOG OF THE LONGER CASES. OKAY. ONCE WE GO THROUGH THE CASES AND GET A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHERE WE ARE ALL. WE'LL ALSO ONE, WE'LL HAVE, OBVIOUSLY WE'LL HAVE WHAT THE DISCIPLINE IS, WHETHER IT'S TWO DAYS OR FIVE DAYS MM-HMM . BUT WE'LL ALSO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YEAR WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MM-HMM . BUT WE'LL HAVE THAT INFORMATION FOR YOU. I WOULD THINK YOU WOULD HAVE A SPREADSHEET THEN THAT WOULD SAY YOU ALL THE TERMINATIONS MIGHT BE UP AT THE TOP, BECAUSE THOSE WOULD BE THE ONES WE WANNA GET THROUGH FIRST. BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT IF WE DON'T SUSTAIN IT, ARE GONNA COME BACK AND THE TOP CLOCK IS TICKING ON BACK PAY. TRUE. SO, AND THEN, SO ONCE YOU HAVE THAT ANALYSIS, THEN I THINK WE HAVE A BETTER IDEA OF HOW WE WANT. WE WOULD LIKE TO GO DOWN THE ROAD. OKAY. WE CAN GET THAT TO YOU AND YOU CAN MAKE THE DECISION OF HOW YOU WANT TO, WHETHER IT'S BASED UPON THE ACTUAL SEVERITY OF THE DISCIPLINE OR THE AGE OF THE CASE. SO, BUT WE CAN GIVE YOU THE INFORMATION AND, AND YOU CAN TELL US WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO DO. YES. UM, IT'S, IT IS BEEN A WHILE SINCE I'VE, I'VE, UM, REPRESENTED THE EMPLOYEE. THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT LIKE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A TWO DAY SUSPENSION, A THREE DAY SUSPENSION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AND SO FAR IT'S HOW IT IMPACTS THE EMPLOYEE. CAN YOU, CAN YOU DO, UM, LIKE A THREE DAY SUSPENSION GOES ON LIKE SOME SORT OF PR AND I CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT IT IS, BUT I KNOW AFTER A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME FOR A SUSPENSION, IT MEANS SOMETHING DIFFERENT TO THE EMPLOYEE. I KNOW FOR IM IF THAT'S, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO, AND I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S ACROSS THE BOARD, BUT I BELIEVE FOR IM THERE'S A PROVISION IN THEY EMAIL YOU THAT SAYS, AND I'M NOT SURE THE EXACT NUMBER OF DAYS, BUT IF YOU HAVE SOME TYPE OF MINOR DISCIPLINE AFTER I WANNA SAY TWO OR THREE YEARS, IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING ELSE, THERE'S A CHANCE YOU MAY HAVE IT SEALED. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO? I THINK THAT'S WHAT SAYING YOU CAN'T ASK AND YOU CAN'T HAVE ANYTHING OVER THREE DAYS SEALED. RIGHT. I'M NOT CERTAIN ON THIS EXACT NUMBER OF DAYS, BUT THERE IS A PROVISION IN THE I AM MOU THAT ADDRESSES THAT. OKAY. YOU CAN SEAL MINOR DISCIP. AND THE ONLY REASON I ASK THAT IS TO GO ALONG WITH WHAT SHE'S SAYING IS IN THE LEVEL OF SEVERITY. RIGHT. TO THE EMPLOYEE. TAKE INTO ACCOUNTABLE. YEAH. YEAH. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? I THINK WE'RE READY TO START. ROLL. OKAY. WELL, BEFORE I, UM, UM, SHUT US DOWN, PHILIP, DID I MISS ANYTHING? PHILIP'S USUALLY HERE FOR THE MEETINGS AS WELL FROM THE CITY CLERK'S OFFICE. HE'S TAKING NOTES OF ALL THE, THE THINGS THAT ARE BEING SAID. DID I MISS ANYTHING IN TERMS OF HOW THESE MEETINGS ARE CONDUCTED? UH, NO. I MEAN, THAT'S PRETTY MUCH IT. WE'LL BE HERE FOR THE FRONT HALF. WE WILL DISAPPEAR. UM, UH, JUST KIND OF POINT OF ORDER, UH, CONFIRMED WITH GARY. UH, WE'LL TYPICALLY DO THE FRONT HALF, UM, YOU KNOW, ANNOUNCEMENTS, PUBLIC COMMENT, ALL THAT STUFF. AND THEN WE'LL ADJOURN. UM, AND IF THERE'S NOTHING TO REPORT OUT, WE'LL CONFER [00:45:01] WITH YOU. UH, THE, THE COMMISSION IF YOU NEED TO REPORT OUT, WE'LL STICK AROUND IF NEED BE OR COME BACK WHEN YOU GUYS ARE DONE. UH, 'CAUSE LIKE GARY SAID, THEY COULD BE 30 MINUTES, THEY COULD BE THE WHOLE DAY. DEPENDS. UM, BUT YEAH, IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, ANYTHING LIKE THAT CLERK'S OFFICE HERE IS TO ASSIST. SO FEEL FREE TO REACH OUT. UM, OTHER THAN THAT, YEAH, I THINK THAT'S IT. UM, DO YOU, DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE TO SPEAK ON ITEM ONE? YEAH, ONE LAST COMMENT I WANNA MAKE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR THE MOST PART, THE PLAN IS TO HAVE MOST OF YOUR MEETINGS, HEARINGS HELD IN THE BEACH ROOM ON THE SECOND FLOOR OF CITY HALL. UM, IF WE CAN'T GET THAT LOCATION FOR WHATEVER REASON, THEN THIS WILL BE THE SECOND OPTION. BUT THAT'S, THAT'S THE, THE PLAN HOPEFULLY, IS TO HAVE THE MEETINGS HELD IN THE BEACH ROOM ON THE SECOND FLOOR OF CITY HALL. WE'LL ALWAYS KEEPING NOTICE, ADVANCED NOTICE OF THE LOCATION AND TIMES, JUST SO YOU KNOW, IT'S A LITTLE BIT LARGER THAN THIS ROOM AND MAY BE MORE ACCOMMODATING FOR WITNESSES AND ATTORNEYS. ARE THEY, THE HEARINGS AREN'T PUBLIC, ARE THEY? SO THE EMPLOYEE HAS A RIGHT TO HAVE THE HEARING EITHER OPEN OR OPEN TO THE PUBLIC OR CLOSED. IT'S, IT'S THEIR OPTION. AND BEFORE WE TYPICALLY WOULD TAKE ANY EVIDENCE, WE PUT ON THE RECORD WHAT THE ELECTION IS OPEN OR CLOSED, BUT THE RECORD IS A MATTER OF PUBLIC RECORD. RIGHT. SO LIKE THE, WELL, WHEN I SAY THE RECORD, I'M REFERRING TO THE RECORD FOR THE HEARING, WHICH THE COURT REPORTER IS CREATING THE RECORD. RIGHT. BUT THAT, THAT'S A, SO LIKE THE, THE ACTUAL HEARING MIGHT BE CLOSED, BUT IT'S STILL PUBLIC RECORD, RIGHT? THE, THE RECORD IS STILL PUBLIC. THERE'S A RECORD THAT THE HEARING IS TAKING PLACE. THERE'S NOT A RECORD NECESSARILY OF WHAT'S BEING SAID IF THE MEETING'S CLOSED. SO THE, THE, THE PUBLIC RECORD WOULD JUST SAY, HERE'S THE, LIKE MINUTES ALMOST, RIGHT. WOULD JUST BE LIKE, THIS IS THE, THE RESULT OF THE HEARING. SO, SO THE PUBLIC RECORD, I THINK YOU ALL HAVE A COPY OF THE AGENDA. SO TYPICALLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IS, LET'S SAY THERE'S NUMBER TWO. NUMBER TWO IS GONNA BE A HEARING. HYPOTHETICALLY, IT WOULDN'T HAVE THE EMPLOYEE'S NAME, IT WOULD HAVE A NUMBER. WE DON'T IDENTIFY EMPLOYEES BY NAME, WHO ARE HERE FOR DISCIPLINARY REASONS. DISCIPLINARY REASONS. WE GIVE THEM A NUMBER. SO IT WOULD BE APPEALING HEARING INVOLVING CASE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. THAT'S WHAT THE PUBLIC WOULD SEE. IT WOULDN'T SEE THAT IT IS, IT'S YOU'RE, YOU KNOW, DEVIN, IT JUST SEE 1 64 5. UM, AND, AND WHEN I SAY WHEN WE START THE HEARING, WHETHER IT'S OPEN OR CLOSED, THAT'S RECORDED BY THE CORPORATE REPORTER FOR PURPOSES OF THE APPEAL, SHOULD THERE BE AN APPEAL. BUT TYPICALLY, MOST OF THE CASES, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE INVOLVED POLICE OFFICERS, MOST OF THE TIME IT WAS CLOSED. BUT THEN THE AGENDA NEXT MONTH WOULD, OR THE NEXT MEETING WOULD REFLECT WHAT OUR DECISION WAS. IF WE MADE A DECISION, THE MINUTES WOULD YES. SO YEAH, THE VERY NEXT, THE VERY NEXT MEETING HOPEFULLY WOULD HAVE THE, THE MINUTES FOR YOU TO ADOPT. AND, AND THAT WOULD INCLUDE A COPY OF THE DECISION. UM, BUT NOT THE DELIBERATIONS, CORRECT? NO, NO. AND EVEN THOSE MINUTES, YOU DON'T SEE THE MINUTES, BUT THE MINUTES THEMSELVES ARE NOT PUBLISHED TO THE PUBLIC. 'CAUSE THE MINUTES CONTAIN THE NAME OF THE EMPLOYEE AND ALL THE WITNESSES. IT WOULD JUST SIMPLY SAY, UM, MINUTES REGARDING APPEAL CASE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. BUT YOU WOULD SEE THE MINUTES 'CAUSE YOU HAVE TO ADOPT THE MINUTES. AND THE MINUTES WOULD RECORD, UM, THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY YOU CHARGE NUMBER ONE, SUSTAIN YOUR VOTE, THE BREAKDOWN 5 0 4 0 1, WHATEVER IT MAY BE. AND THAT'S A PUBLIC RECORD. NO, THAT'S NOT . NO EMPLOYEE PRIVACY. I GOTCHA. ANY MORE QUESTIONS? OMAR, DID YOU SHOULD SAY ANYTHING? NO, NO. BASICALLY JUST THANK YOU AND WELCOME. THIS IS THE ING TASK THAT YOU HAVE AHEAD, AHEAD WITH YOU. THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE LEAD. UM, MY, AND I DO APOLOGIZE. I, I WISH I HAD MOTIONAL ASSIGNMENTS FORWARD, BUT MY FIRST TASK WHEN I JOINED THE CIVIL SERVICE IN DECEMBER WERE JUST TO KEEP THE COMMISSION MEETINGS MOVING BECAUSE THEY HAVE FROZEN FOR A WHILE. SO MY APOLOGIES. BUT IT'S, IT'S A GOOD THING THAT YOU GUYS ARE DOING. SO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. NO APOLOGIES NEEDED. LET ME, LET ME CLARIFY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, UM, GOING BACK IN TIME, HOW SHOULD I PUT THIS, THERE WAS A LOT OF INFLUX IN TERMS OF WHAT WAS GONNA HAPPEN WITH THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION. OBVIOUSLY THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE FOR IT IN TERMS OF THE CONSOLIDATION AND PEOPLE WHO WERE AGAINST IT. AND SO DURING THAT TIME, BECAUSE OF THAT INFLUX AND BECAUSE OF THAT, UM, UNCERTAINTY, UNCERTAINTY, [00:50:01] THE COMMISSION NECESSARILY WASN'T REALLY HEARING CASES. WE WERE MORE FOCUSED ON WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF PRESERVING THE COMMISSION AS IS. AND SO CASES WEREN'T BEING HEARD. SO IT WASN'T THROUGH FAULT OF OMAR WHO CAME IN AS THE, UM, INTERIM EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR. IT WAS JUST A POINT IN TIME WHERE WITH EVERYTHING GOING ON POLITICALLY, THAT WAS THE LAST THING I THINK THE COMMISSION WAS REALLY, REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT. IT WAS MORE ABOUT TRYING TO PRESERVE THE COMMISSION AS A BODY AS THEY SAW. WELL, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE INTERIM COMMISSION WAS EXTREMELY BUSY WITH WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND KEEPING GOING. YES. AND, AND THREE OF THOSE MEMBERS WERE ALSO SERVING ANOTHER COMMISSION. SO YES, IT WOULD, IT WAS JUST TO KEEP THE HEAD ABOVE THE WATER SITUATION. CORRECT. SO NO, NO APOLOGY NECESSARY ON MARK. YEAH, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. THANK YOU. AND I WOULD LIKE TO, UM, I DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN DO THIS, BUT UM, YOU KNOW, WE WE'RE ALL GONNA BE, UH, MOVING FORWARD AS COMMISSIONERS, UH, AND, AND HEARING CASES AND, AND VOTING ON THINGS. AND THE FOUR OF US HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ASK QUESTIONS. OUR FIFTH MEMBERS HERE, BUT HASN'T HAD A CHANCE TO ASK ANY QUESTIONS. IS IT OKAY FOR HIM TO ASK QUESTIONS? NOW, YOU NOT NECESSARILY VOTE ON THE, UM, APPROVAL OF ITEM ONE OR NOT, BUT CAN WE HEAR HIS QUESTIONS IF HE HASN'T? I THINK, I THINK IT'D BE APPROPRIATE. MAYBE IF WE DID MAYBE DURING PUBLIC COMMENT AND HE COULD I MAKE A MOTION TO MOVE BACK TO PUBLIC COMMENT? NO, NO. WE'LL HAVE A PUBLIC COMMENT. THERE'S USUALLY TWO PUBLIC COMMENTS AT THE BEGINNING. OH, OKAY. BUT AT THE END, WE, WE CAN HAVE MR. OWENS, UM, ASK ANY QUESTIONS. HE MAY HAVE A PUBLIC COMMENT AS A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC AS OPPOSED TO BEING A MEMBER OF THE COMMISSION. OKAY. EXCELLENT. THANK YOU. NO WORRIES. ALL RIGHT. UM, QUESTIONS, , IF THERE'S NO MORE ITEMS ON THE REGULAR AGENDA, ITEM NUMBER ONE, WE'LL GO AHEAD AND MOVE TO PUBLIC COMMENT NOW. SO WE'LL TAKE PUBLIC COMMENT ON ITEM ONE AND THEN WE WILL, UH, TAKE A VOTE ON THE, UH, FROM THE COMMISSION AND, AND CLOSE IT OUT. SO, UH, IF THERE IS NO FURTHER DISCUSSION, WE'LL OPEN FOR PUBLIC COMMENT. I DO HAVE ONE QUESTION. YES. UH, I HEARD THAT WE WILL BE MEETING ON WEDNESDAYS TO ACTUALLY HEAR, ACTUALLY HEAR CASES, BUT THE CASES MAY TAKE SEVERAL MEETINGS. AND SO IS THOSE ONLY ON WEDNESDAYS OR WILL THOSE SEVERAL DAYS BE WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY AND FRIDAY? IT'S, IT IS TYPICALLY THE COMMISSION THAT MAKES A DECISION OF HOW FREQUENTLY YOU WANT TO HEAR A CASE ONCE YOU START ON WEDNESDAY. BUT THE PAST PRACTICES, MAN, IF IT A CASE OF LET'S SAY IT FOUR DAYS, FIVE DAYS, THEN YOU MEET EVERY WEDNESDAY, EVERY OTHER WEDNESDAY IF IF POSSIBLE. UM, IF IT'S GONNA BE A LITTLE BIT LONGER THAN FIVE DAYS, THEN THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES WHEN THE COMMISSION WOULD SAY, OKAY, LET'S DO THURSDAY. WHO'S AVAILABLE FRIDAY? LET'S TRY TO GET THIS CASE RESOLVED QUICKLY. 'CAUSE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE FIVE, SIX DAYS THAT ONE DAY A WEEK, YOU'RE ALREADY A MONTH, MONTH AND A HALF IN. SO FOR THOSE REASONS, SOMETIMES THE COMMISSION WOULD HAVE, UM, HEARINGS ON CONSECUTIVE DAYS, WEDNESDAY OR THURSDAY, WEDNESDAY OR FRIDAY. BUT IT IS TOTALLY WITHIN THE DISCRETION OF THE COMMISSION TO DECIDE. BUT IF NOT, IT WILL BE EVERY OTHER WEDNESDAY. WELL, I'M SORRY, EVERY WEDNESDAY. EVERY WEDNESDAY. YEAH. EVERY WEDNESDAY. GOTCHA. THANK YOU. YES, THAT'S FINE. YES. AND, AND IN THE PAST WHEN THE COMMISSION, UM, THIS WAS BEFORE THE MERGER, THE COMMISSION MET REGULARLY EVERY OTHER WEDNESDAY. 'CAUSE EVEN WHEN THERE WASN'T AN APPEAL HEARING, THERE WAS STILL CIVIL SERVICE BUSINESS TO DO. YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S APPROVING A JOB, WHETHER IT'S APPROVING A JOB, IFICATION, APPROVING EXTENSION OF PROBATION. SO THERE WAS BUSINESS STUFF THAT THEY DID ON A REGULAR BASIS, WHICH NECESSITATED HAVING MEETINGS EVERY OTHER WEDNESDAY. BUT NOW THE VAST MAJORITY OF ALL THAT WORK IS NOW WHAT THEY ARE. DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? OKAY. SO BE SAFE. WE SHOULD JUST BLOCK OFF EVERY WEDNESDAY. YES. ONCE, ONCE I GIVE YOU THE SCHEDULE IN TERMS OF THE CASES TO BE HEARD, THEN YES. AT THAT POINT, MOVING FORWARD, I GET AS MANY AS DONE. NO. UM, HOLD, WE WERE, SO WE WERE IN PUBLIC COMMENT. , . ANY MORE COMMENTS FOR PUBLIC COMMENT? NO MORE COMMENT. ALRIGHT, SO, UM, WE HAVE ANNOUNCEMENTS. ANY ANNOUNCEMENTS? MR. UH, WE, UH, WE, WE WILL HAVE TO TAKE, UH, UH, THE VOTE ON THE ITEM AND THEN WE CAN, THEN WE CAN MOVE INTO ANNOUNCEMENTS AND ADJOURN. SO WE NEED A MOTION ON THE RECEIVING FILE OF THE PRESENTATION THAT I JUST GAVE YOU. YES. WE HAVE A MOTION AND A SECOND. OH, YEAH, I, WE JUST NEED TO TAKE A VOTE. SO WE'LL DO A VERBAL. SO COMMISSIONER MORALES. AYE. COMMISSIONER GARNER. AYE. [00:55:01] COMMISSIONER GOLAR. GOOD. AYE. COMMISSIONER ALU. AYE. MOTION PASSES OR CARRIES? OKAY, WE'RE WEARING ANNOUNCEMENTS NOW. [ANNOUNCEMENTS] WHAT'S YOUR ANNOUNCEMENT? IT, IT WAS ANOTHER QUESTION. UH, GO AHEAD. YEAH, SO, UH, SO WE'RE NOT GONNA HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW CHANGES TO, UH, SPECIFICATE CLASS, LIKE CLASS SPECIFICATIONS OR WORK CERTIFICATIONS? NO, NO, NO. THAT GOES, THAT GOES TO CITY COUNCIL OR IS IT JUST HR? HR? DOES IT JUST DONE HR DOES IT, HR DOES ALL THAT STUFF NOW. THERE'S NO, THERE'S NO OVERSIGHT ON NO, BUT THIS COMMISSION, NO. ALL THOSE RESPONSIBILITIES AND DUTIES HAVE BEEN TRANSFERRED TO HR, UH, PURSUANT TO MEASUREMENT LP LEVEL, THEY'RE STILL UP FOR MEETING CONFER THOUGH, WITH THE APPLIC APPLICABLE UNION THOUGH. ONE MORE TIME. THEY WOULD STILL BE UP FOR MEETING CONFERS WITH THE APPLICABLE UNION? YES. OKAY. YES. LIKE THE JOB APPLICATIONS? YES. OKAY. HR WOULD BE MEETING WITH THEM AS PART OF THE MEETING COVER OUR PROCESS. UM, BASICALLY HR HAS STEPPED INTO THE SHOES OF CIVIL SERVICE FOR THAT PURPOSE. ALRIGHT. NO MORE QUESTIONS. WE CAN JOIN THE MEETING AT 10 33. [ADJOURNMENT] 10 33. OKAY. WE ARE EARNED. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.